Rhetoric and Philosophy: Part One of the Gorgias with Athenian Stranger and Johnathan Bi

“In war and battle, this is the way to do your part.”

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick is joined by the Athenian Stranger and Johnathan Bi to introduce the Gorgias and discuss the first part: the dialogue of Gorgias and Socrates.

What begins as a polite inquiry into the nature of rhetoric erupts into a war for the soul of Athens—and for every reader seeking the good life.

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Athenian Stranger frames the conflict as two competing “technologies” of speech: Gorgias’ art that grants “freedom for oneself and empire over everyone else” (452d) versus Socrates’ dialectical practice that knows “the natures and causes of things” (464b–465a). The dialogue’s three-part structure—shortest with reserved Gorgias, medium with spirited Polus, longest with shameless Callicles—spirals downward, exposing pleonexia (infinite grasping desire) beneath all three souls.

Dcn. Harrison Garlick underscores the dialogue’s raw honesty: Athenian youth, like us, faced a nihilistic void after the gods’ decline, craving tyranny over truth. Philosophical gems abound—“better to be harmed than harm,” “better to be punished than escape justice”—while the pastry-baker analogy brands rhetoric without philosophy as mere flattery.

The world that Socrates is engaging with is far more like our world than I think I realized… nihilism as a modern phenomenon? You see this really with the young men of Athens too.” – Dcn. Harrison Garlick

“We all have erotic longings. The question is, they of the noble things that separate us from the beasts or are they of the bodily pleasures?” – Athenian Stranger

Next episode: Polus defends raw power with Dr. Matthew Bianco (Circe Institute).